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annotate HeavenOnEarth/notes.txt @ 648:f032ff21deb4
from Martin
| author | Henry S Thompson <ht@inf.ed.ac.uk> |
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| date | Wed, 22 Oct 2025 20:55:26 +0100 |
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1 =================== |
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2 Part 1 Tim Peat Ashworth _The Earliest Christians_ |
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3 =================== |
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5 Paul as focussed on the transformation of all |
| 206 | 6 creation, originating in the transformation of ourselves. Finding |
| 7 that throughout the NT. | |
| 8 | |
| 9 "The William": There's a big gap in the New Testament narratives: the | |
| 10 Romans, the resistance, Masada (73 CE), etc. Why? | |
| 11 | |
| 12 Stuart M: Tension between the quiet, inward worship practice and the | |
| 13 noisy, outward, charismatic behaviour it underpinned. | |
| 14 | |
| 15 The struggle to survive post-Restoration plus the failure of the | |
| 16 expectation of external transformation put the previous public | |
| 17 aspect of Quakerism had to be reined in. | |
| 18 | |
| 19 Barclay gives up on radical equality: God's plan allows for | |
| 20 different wealth for different people. | |
| 21 | |
| 22 Branston-Hicks metaphor! Is there still a real labour and birth | |
| 23 still to come? | |
| 24 | |
| 25 TPA: But note that in early Christianity the challenge of organisation | |
| 26 vs. inspiration leads to an emergence of hierarchy, but that never | |
| 27 happened among Friends... | |
| 28 | |
| 29 Ben Dandelion: Fox appealing to "30 minutes of silence" in Revelation, | |
| 30 and the inward communion in Revelation 3:20 (?: "Here I am! I stand at | |
| 31 the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I | |
| 32 will come in and eat with that person, and they with me."). | |
| 33 | |
| 34 Evangelical framing of their situation in the 18th century falls in | |
| 35 line with the "sometime in the distance" for the expectation of the | |
| 36 2nd Coming | |
| 37 | |
| 38 How can we reframe the idea of Heaven on Earth, reinvent the | |
| 39 tradition, to keep the possibility of transformation alive. | |
| 40 | |
| 41 How do we make sense of what is essentially a 2nd coming liturgy? | |
| 42 | |
| 43 If we're waiting for humanity to respond to the opportunity, what | |
| 44 will it take for that to happen? [TPA: When we realise there is no | |
| 45 alternative] | |
| 46 | |
| 47 TPA: What accounts then for the "20% of London and Bristol were | |
| 48 caught up by Quakerism" in the 1650s? BPD: [The context: finding | |
| 49 certainity and hope in a catastrophic situation] | |
| 50 | |
| 51 The contrast of "anyone can be saved" with much of what the other | |
| 52 churches were saying. | |
| 53 | |
| 54 ----------TPA video 1---------- | |
| 55 | |
| 56 Luke: "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me" are Jesus's first public | |
| 57 words. Thereafter we don't hear much about the Spirit, but the | |
| 58 unspoken sub-text is, wrt Jesus himself: "Look at Jesus: This is what | |
| 59 the Spirit-led life looks like". The Spirit gives a foretaste of what | |
| 60 is to come... Paul describes the Apostles as 'Ambassadors of life in | |
| 61 the Spirit'. Manifesting life in the Spirit as it was in Jesus, | |
| 62 because they saw it in him. [Note that this makes Paul's claim to | |
| 63 _be_ and Apostle a bit tenuous] | |
| 64 | |
| 65 Early Christian communities: spiritual families ('brother' and 'sister') | |
| 66 Boundaries crossed/erased -- manifestations of the Spirit -- but a | |
| 67 diversity of gifts. Their community life is manifesting what the | |
| 68 Spirit is bringing and will bring. | |
| 69 | |
| 70 Revelation: taking away a veil, now, and coming. Normal way of seeing | |
| 71 boundaries between e.g. classes is falling away, seeing things in new | |
| 72 ways. Not a new set of teachings, but a new kind of perception [and | |
| 73 of living?] | |
| 74 | |
| 75 Crunch time: how much can you rely on this? First conflict over the | |
| 76 dietary laws. The Law vs. the new vision. Matthew keeps a strong | |
| 77 place for the Law, Jesus as a teacher in the Jewish tradition | |
| 78 (radical, but in the same tradition). | |
| 79 | |
| 80 Humanity is to be transformed, and continue, in the Spirit, (and so | |
| 81 the whole of Creation is transformed). | |
| 82 | |
| 83 Luke has what Eden Grace described: "Creation waits with eager/anxious expectation" | |
| 84 A sense of bringing to birth, with the attendant hint of anxiety. | |
| 85 And we have the Spirit as midwife to the change: support with firmness | |
| 86 | |
| 87 Humanity refashioned not just in, but as, the image ('ikon') of God | |
| 88 | |
| 89 And this has to begin with a dying of the old form of life. | |
| 90 "_I_ live no longer, but Christ lives in me" [Paul, somewhere] | |
| 91 | |
| 92 TPA (responding to SM): There's a _lot_ about newness in the NT, but | |
| 93 it's almost all about people coming into a new understanding of what | |
| 94 it is to be human, and not much about seeing the whole of creation in | |
| 95 a new way, as early Friends would. | |
| 96 | |
| 97 PBD paraphrasing TPA (responding to BPD): Jesus's resurrection is the | |
| 98 _beginning_ of the fulfillment of the prophesy of universal | |
| 99 resurrection: "a justification that something major has begun, if if | |
| 100 it hasn't been completed". | |
| 101 | |
| 102 TPA (responding so SM 42:10): Was it a time of constant upheaval, | |
| 103 heavy oppresive behavious from the occupying Roman forces, etc.? A | |
| 104 lot of scholarly debate pro and con on this. Ed Saunders (sp?) yes | |
| 105 life was tough, harvests failed, but Roman rule was by-and-large _not_ | |
| 106 obtrusive, and largely implemented through local intermediaries. | |
| 107 | |
| 108 BPD: Are the Gospels trying, as they tell it, to reconfigure what | |
| 109 happened leading up to and in Jesus's crucifixion to fit with new | |
| 110 sense of delay [in the Kingdom] [that they were experiencing 20/30 | |
| 111 years later]? | |
| 112 | |
| 113 The coming of the Spirit to the Gentiles, which happened very quickly, | |
| 114 was "the knock-down argument" that the coming resurrection was for | |
| 115 _all_ people, not just the (people formerly known as the) Chosen of | |
| 116 God. | |
| 117 | |
| 118 ==============Forum discussions========== | |
| 119 I need to say something in this thread: | |
| 120 https://moodle.woodbrooke.org.uk/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=14517 | |
| 121 about (FK's reading of) Aquinas's approach to free will and Grace: | |
| 122 not just us, not just God, but (a mystical union of) both... | |
| 123 | |
| 124 ---------TPA Video 2----------- | |
| 207 | 125 Back to what is coming, that is heaven on earth, is understood as the |
| 126 transformation of humankind. So, not so much heaven on earth as | |
| 127 heaven _in_ earth, 'in earthy stuff'. Ref. Phil. 2:5-8 | |
| 128 | |
| 129 5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: | |
| 206 | 130 |
| 207 | 131 6 who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God |
| 132 something to be used to his own advantage; | |
| 133 | |
| 134 7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a | |
| 135 servant, being made in human likeness. | |
| 136 | |
| 137 8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by | |
| 138 becoming obedient to death – even death on a cross! | |
| 139 | |
| 140 Ref. Genesis -- "made in the image of God" -- we can do this ourselves. | |
| 141 | |
| 142 Day of Atonement, in the Temple, in Jerusalem: the only day the High | |
| 143 Priest goes in to the Holy of Holies. Wearing this-day-only | |
| 144 vestments, with imagery of Creation and the Garden. In the | |
| 145 forgiveness that follows, the whole of creation is restored to the | |
| 146 purity of the Garden. | |
| 147 | |
| 148 The New Testament is usually approached (i.e. we 21st century folk | |
| 149 were taught it) through and from the perspective of the later | |
| 150 developments of the Christian Church. | |
| 151 | |
| 152 And of course that also has influenced how it is translated. | |
| 153 | |
| 154 As the community/communities of Early Christians grow and stabilise, | |
| 155 external pressure on them grows, which in turn leads to a need to have | |
| 156 an account of their origins that's coherent and reliable, which in | |
| 157 turn leads to downplaying e.g. the early internal frictions, even as | |
| 158 the New Testament is still being written... | |
| 159 | |
| 160 At first there's a lot of flexibility, stories, metaphors, adaptations | |
| 161 of the Hebrew scriptures. | |
| 162 | |
| 163 But as the community gets more public, more confident, with more | |
| 164 impact on the wider world, pressure from outside grows, which | |
| 165 generates pressure within the community as to how they live in the | |
| 166 world, what must be held on to and what can change to accommodate to | |
| 167 outside pressure... And so a structure of authority and reliable | |
| 168 doctrine emerges | |
| 169 | |
| 170 *Quakers: three keys to unlock what was happening in earliest | |
| 171 Christianity* | |
| 172 | |
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173 1) *The living word* |
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174 'This is the word of the Lord' |
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175 But in the NT, 'the word of the Lord' does _not_ mean Scripture. |
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176 As in the OT, it is something that comes to _people_, in the OT |
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177 the prophets, in the NT the new Christians themselves. |
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178 Ref. Hebrews 8, quoting Jeremiah 31:31-34, several times. This is |
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179 the longest quote of the OT in the NT: "The days are surely coming..." |
| 207 | 180 |
| 181 31 The days are surely coming, says the Lord, when I will make a | |
| 182 new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. | |
| 183 | |
| 184 32 It will not be like the covenant that I made with their | |
| 185 ancestors when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the | |
| 186 land of Egypt—a covenant that they broke, though I was their | |
| 187 husband, says the Lord. | |
| 188 | |
| 189 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of | |
| 190 Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put my law within | |
| 191 them, and I will write it on their hearts; and I will be their | |
| 192 God, and they shall be my people. | |
| 193 | |
| 194 34 No longer shall they teach one another, or say to each other, | |
| 195 "Know the Lord," for they shall all know me, from the least of | |
| 196 them to the greatest, says the Lord; for I will forgive their | |
| 197 iniquity, and remember their sin no more. | |
| 198 [NRSV https://www.biblestudytools.com/nrs/] | |
| 199 | |
| 200 Central to early Christian understanding (note reference to a "new | |
| 201 covenant", as in the blessing at the Last Supper). | |
| 202 | |
| 203 Hebrews 4:7 O that today you would hear his voice, harden not your | |
| 204 hearts [TPA] | |
| 205 | |
| 206 Hebrews 4:12 Indeed, the word of God is living and active, sharper | |
| 207 than any two-edged sword, piercing until it divides | |
| 208 soul from spirit, joints from marrow; it is able to | |
| 209 judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. [NRSV] | |
| 210 | |
| 211 Hebrews 6:4 ... those who have once been enlightened, and have | |
| 212 tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy | |
| 213 Spirit, (5) and have tasted the goodness of the word of | |
| 214 God and the powers of the age to come, | |
| 215 | |
| 216 Hebrews 12:22-25 | |
| 217 | |
| 218 22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of | |
| 219 the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to | |
| 220 innumerable angels in festal gathering, | |
| 221 | |
| 222 23 and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled | |
| 223 in heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the | |
| 224 spirits of the righteous made perfect, | |
| 225 | |
| 226 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to | |
| 227 the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the | |
| 228 blood of Abel. | |
| 229 | |
| 230 25 See that you do not refuse the one who is speaking [NRSV] | |
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231 |
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232 2) *Jesus: how do you recognise the living word, the true prophet?* |
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233 |
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234 A sharpness in the way Luke talks about Jesus, particularly the way |
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235 in which he says you have to see things differently: the old ways of |
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236 recognition are not capable of seeing the new thing that is emerging. |
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237 |
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238 Unless you change, you will not perceive |
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239 |
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240 Prompting people into a new way of seeing -- not about ethics in |
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241 Luke, about how to live... |
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242 |
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243 Luke 7:18--21 - questions about John; how can this man be a prophet |
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244 -- what we you looking to _see_ when you went out to the desert to |
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245 find John? You get it wrong: John is mad, I'm a drunkard. [those |
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246 are the old ways of seeing]. At the end [7:35] "Wisdom is justified |
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247 [vindicate] by [all] her children". [NRSV] |
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248 |
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249 Parable of the Sower explained: "The seed is the word" [8:11]. |
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250 |
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251 "Then pay attention to how you listen; for to those who have, more |
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252 will be given; and from those who do not have, even what they seem to |
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253 have will be taken away" [8:18] |
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254 |
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255 Who are my mother and my brothers? "My mother and my brothers are |
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256 those who hear the word of the Lord and do it." [8:21] |
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257 |
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258 3) *All the faithful may prophecy* |
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259 |
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260 Pentecost |
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261 1 Corinthians 14: |
| 207 | 262 |
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263 29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what |
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264 is said. |
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265 |
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266 30 If a revelation is made to someone else sitting nearby, let |
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267 the first person be silent. |
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268 |
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269 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and |
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270 all be encouraged. |
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271 |
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272 32 And the spirits of prophets are subject to the prophets, [NRSV] |
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273 |
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274 Listen with the same spirit as what is being said... |
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275 |
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276 The priesthood of all the faithful 1 Peter 2: |
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277 |
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278 9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, |
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279 |
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280 Doesn't last: ref. pressures above, _and_ conflict within[/between] |
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281 the communities, bishops 'overseers' and deacons 'servants' |
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282 emerge by the end of the NT era. |
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283 |
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284 Prophecy is unpredictable, elusive: importance of community in |
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285 discernment, emerging in Paul, prophetic testing, what builds up the community. |
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286 |
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287 ----- |
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288 |
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289 The problem of discernment emerges: The development of the Spirit-led |
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290 life, but Which of the developments are distortions, which are truly |
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291 spirit-led |
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292 |
| 209 | 293 -----Discussion------- |
| 294 SM: Wrt the focus being on the person, it's because the _problem_ is with | |
| 295 humanity, the Fall, (ref. Nayler and the Eastern church) | |
| 296 | |
| 297 TPA: We are not separate from Creation, and when things go wrong it has | |
| 298 _cosmic_ significance: if the image of God is lost in us, that's a | |
| 299 fundamental problem. | |
| 300 | |
| 301 BPD: What happens to Heaven on Earth as the pressure builds? | |
| 302 | |
| 303 TPA: That leads to serious questions about how Jesus is understood. | |
| 304 By John, Jesus has been considerably elevated ("my Lord and my God"). | |
| 305 The earliest Christianity as "living the Spirit-led life" is somehow | |
| 306 overshadowed by the role of faith in Jesus -> you will have eternal | |
| 307 life. The conflict makes the focus be on preservation rather than | |
| 308 growth. Keeping, protecting, holding the community. | |
| 309 | |
| 310 SM: We need to be ordered in order to survive. Parallel with early | |
| 311 Friends. Accommodating to the world is precisely what compromises the | |
| 312 vision. "They were possessed of the Spirit, and lost it" vs. "They | |
| 313 were crazy, and then settled down" Early Christians, and early | |
| 314 Friends. | |
| 315 | |
| 316 TPA: The tension is there, in the NT, between the focus being on | |
| 317 living the Spirit-led life, or being extraordinarily devoted to Jesus. | |
| 318 "If you start only with Jesus's divinity, that's a fixed point: it | |
| 319 [the NT] doesn't reveal its truth". | |
| 320 | |
| 321 BPD: So is the problem that they didn't have, as it were, Fox and | |
| 322 Fell, to take things in hand and lead them forward? | |
| 323 | |
| 324 TPA: Hmm. The network is there, there are links between the | |
| 325 communities, Paul is travelling, others are too. And there are things | |
| 326 that are shared/persist, e.g. Jesus, and the life in the Spirit, but | |
| 327 dealing with the world is less systematic, the problem [of outside | |
| 328 pressure] becomes more acute. This leads towards hierarchy and an | |
| 329 authority structure, centred on Rome by the end of the 1st century. | |
| 330 You have the Bishop of Rome writing to the community in Corinth in | |
| 331 95CE. | |
| 332 | |
| 333 SM: Parallel with the shift of power from Swarthmore Hall to London, | |
| 334 with the male Elders in the Second-Day Morning Meeting controlling | |
| 335 what can be published in the Quaker name. You see the need to control | |
| 336 the public image. | |
| 337 | |
| 338 TPA, responding to BPD: You see this in how Jesus goes about his work: | |
| 339 It's not [Gnostic] "we know and you don't", rather "the only way you | |
| 340 can come to this is by seeing it yourself", "there's no bit of | |
| 341 teaching that is going to do this [for you]", difficult, being really | |
| 342 creative: Parables are _not neat_, they're provocative. | |
| 343 | |
| 344 SM: [In a group where] two or three people had had significant | |
| 345 transformative spiritual experiences, and they felt that it isolated | |
| 346 them from their communities, where no-one else had had that... | |
| 347 | |
| 348 [Brilliant, speaking with the prophetic voice, post from Linda | |
| 349 Garrett: https://moodle.woodbrooke.org.uk/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=14564] | |
|
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350 |
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351 ========================== |
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352 Stuart Masters _The Early Quakers_ |
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353 ========================== |
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354 |
| 213 | 355 --------------- SM Video 1 --------- |
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356 Mainstream Puritanism at the start of the Quaker period is quite |
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357 straight Calvanism, with predestination of the Elect as the core. |
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358 |
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359 Radical Puritanism, in contract, really experiencing and knowing God |
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360 within yourself, shared with the early Quaker vision. |
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361 |
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362 *The Experience and the Vision* |
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363 |
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364 *Pentecost* -- the catalyst, the enabler |
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365 |
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366 The spirit of God poured on all people: |
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367 |
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368 Joel 2:28 (Peter adverts to this in Acts 2:17) |
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369 |
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370 In the last days it will be, God declares, that I will pour out my |
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371 Spirit upon _all_ flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall |
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372 prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men |
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373 shall dream dreams. [NRSV] [Emphasis added by SM] |
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374 |
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375 Made possible by the Incarnation -- a new creation |
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376 |
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377 Leads to Charismatic aspect of early Quakerism: Embodied |
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378 spirituality Signs, miracles, healing |
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379 |
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380 [same as TPA above]: The new creation is both individual, and |
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381 universal: |
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382 |
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383 "...give all diligence to the Spirit's motion and leadings, what it |
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384 moves against, and what it leads to; for now will God make all |
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385 things new: a new creation, new heavens, and new earth, and new |
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386 heart and mind, and a new law, a new man to walk therein with his |
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387 Maker with cheerfulness" James Nayler _Milk for Babes and Meat for |
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388 Strong Men_ [from prison, 1660, published 1661] |
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389 http://www.qhpress.org/texts/nayler/milkmeat.html |
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390 |
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391 *The New Covenant* |
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392 |
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393 Jeremiah 31:33-34 [loc. cit. above at *The living word*] |
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394 repeated in Hebrews 8 |
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395 |
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396 The image of God fully restored, God will teach us Godself. |
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397 |
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398 But the truth of this in the early Church had been lost, people had |
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399 turned away from the spirit and power of that experience and that |
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400 direct inward intimacy, and had turned again to 2nd-hand, outward, |
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401 mediated sorts of ways of relating to God. |
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402 |
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403 "And this we witness to be that covenant and that power by which we |
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404 are entered into that inheritance which is eternal and are made |
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405 partakers of the divine nature; which nature is righteous, merciful |
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406 and just, meek and patient, faithful and diligent to the obedience |
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407 of the cross, long-suffering, full of love, moderation and |
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408 temperance, and in all things thereby are transformed into his |
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409 likeness,68 so far as we are entered into and abide in this |
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410 covenant, so that we can truly say, here he is all, and self is |
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411 nothing" James Nayler _A Salutation to the Seed of God_ 1655 |
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412 http://www.qhpress.org/texts/nayler/sal_seed.html |
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413 |
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414 Christ living in us (ref. Paul in Galatians 2:20) |
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415 |
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416 *The Apocalyptic* |
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417 |
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418 Not about cataclysmic conflict and destruction, but primarily about |
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419 God removing the veil that obscures our vision of things. |
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420 |
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421 People begin to see themselves and the whole creation through divine |
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422 eys rather than through their limited and often distorted human |
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423 vision. |
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424 |
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425 "The word is that which was in the beginning, and was the beginning |
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426 of all visible things, and that by which all things were made, but |
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427 itself is invisible; which though it be the upholder of all visible |
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428 things, yet can no visible thing reveal it; yet doth it reveal the |
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429 ground and use and end of all visibles. And as without it 'was |
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430 nothing made that was made', so without it is nothing seen as it was |
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431 made, nor anything can be guided nor used in its pure place; but |
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432 whatever man meddles with, not having the word in him to guide, |
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433 order, and sanctify, the same he defiles, and it is polluted as to |
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434 him. Nor can this word be comprehended in heaven or earth; without |
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435 this word can no holy Scripture be read with profit, for it opens |
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436 the Scriptures, and the Scriptures declare of it, yet cannot the |
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437 Scriptures nor all the writings of the world comprehend it nor |
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438 declare the depth and extent of it, which is beyond all generations; |
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439 yet is it the teacher and guide of his own in all generations; and |
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440 in all generations of saints hath been known in measure, more or |
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441 less immediately, though it has no place in the world's profession." |
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442 James Nayler _Love To The Lost And a Hand held forth to the |
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443 Helpless To Lead out of the Dark_ 1656b |
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444 http://www.qhpress.org/texts/nayler/lovelost.html |
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445 |
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446 ["I am not the Christ, but Christ lives in me"] |
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447 |
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448 *The Prophetic* - the image of God has been fully restored in the human |
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449 |
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450 Back to Jeremiah and Paul: In the new humanity, people become vessels |
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451 through which God speaks and acts. |
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452 |
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453 This is what humanity was created to be, was lost, and is now possible |
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454 again. |
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455 |
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456 "Verily the Lord God hath sent me to declare and publish, and sound |
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457 forth hsi message unto all Israel, even to declare the day of free |
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458 love, and everlasting consolation, how blessed a thing is it for the |
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459 Brethren to dwell together in the unity of love and the Holy Spirit, |
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460 in the covenant of love and peace, in the union of Saints in the |
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461 Light." Dorothy White _Unto All God's Host in England_ 1660 |
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462 [not online?] |
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463 |
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464 The Fall was a fragmentation, the new opportunity is to find a |
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465 communal identify: a temple of living stones. |
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466 |
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467 Rather than sitting helplessly, knowing nothing about your own |
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468 salvation or lack thereof. No, heaven has come down to earth and is |
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469 dwelling in us, and we are showing it forth. |
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470 |
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471 "thus is the Living God Purifying his Temples [us?]; and he is |
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472 making a Glorious Situation, a Heavenly Habitation, and an |
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473 Everlasting dwelling place in the Sons and Daughters of Men; for God |
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474 is now come to dwell in his people, as he hath said, I will dwell in |
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475 them, and I will walk in them, and a people hath God chosen to dwell |
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476 in, and this is Gods everlasting day of loving kindness," Dorothy |
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477 White _A Visitation of Heavenly Love_ 1660 |
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478 http://www.qhpress.org/cgi-bin/esrlink.cgi?doc=E27763157&name=dorothy.white |
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479 [page 6] |
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480 http://dqc.esr.earlham.edu:8080/xmlmm/docButtonB?XMLMMWhat=builtPage&XMLMMWhere=E27763157.P00000010-6&XMLMMBeanName=docBean&XMLMMNextPage=/printBuiltPageBrowse.jsp |
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481 |
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216
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482 |
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483 "And when God descends from heaven to walk on earth in his temples |
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484 [us], and to require his worship to himself out of all sects and |
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485 traditions, this is his entertainment from all that look for him in |
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486 observations, whose coming is within, and his kingdom is within |
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487 you." James Nayler _What the Possession of the Living Faith Is_ |
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488 (from prison, printed 1659) |
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489 http://www.qhpress.org/texts/nayler/possess.html |
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490 |
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491 [Note also, and c.f. my earlier understanding of Barclay on the Day of Visitation, |
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492 that QHP's vocabulary notes to Barclay's apology say |
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493 |
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494 "_day_: period of time (not necessarily a calendar day)" ] |
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495 http://www.qhpress.org/texts/barclay/apology/index.html#vii.7 |
| 211 | 496 |
| 497 Early Friends viewed heaven primarily as a matter of (intimate) | |
| 498 relationship with and participation in God. | |
| 499 | |
| 500 "But his kingdom in this world, in which he chiefly delights to walk | |
| 501 and make himself known, is in the hearts of such as have believed in | |
| 502 him, and owned his call out of the world, whose hearts he hath | |
| 503 purified, and whose bodies he hath washed in obedience <6> and made | |
| 504 them fit for the Father to be worshipped in," | |
| 505 James Nayler _The Lamb's War against the Man of Sin_ (1657) | |
| 506 | |
| 507 Scattering and fragmentation brought back into oneness and into union | |
| 508 | |
| 509 Choice for humanity: A life focussed on the Creator, or on the | |
| 510 created. | |
| 511 | |
| 512 Abiding in that which is uncreated and eternal, revealing the divine | |
| 513 nature and leading to eternal live | |
| 514 | |
| 515 Abide in that which is temporary and corruptible leading inevitably to | |
| 516 sin and death | |
| 517 | |
| 518 "But that which is born of the heavenly, is heavenly, spiritual, | |
| 519 eternal, and incorruptible; which is the state of the new man, which | |
| 520 of God is begotten of the divine nature; and as is his nature, so is | |
| 521 his works; and so his delights are spiritual; for as is the man, so | |
| 522 are his works; and as is the tree, so is its fruit. And so he that | |
| 523 is born of this seed is born of God; and he that is born of God sins | |
| 524 not, in whom that seed remains. And all who remain in this seed, and | |
| 525 it in them, this hath the promise and power that puts off the old | |
| 526 man with his deeds, lusts, and affections;" | |
| 527 James Nayler _Love to the Lost_ (1656) | |
| 528 http://www.qhpress.org/texts/nayler/lovelost.html | |
| 529 | |
| 530 [But note that there's still a bit of "jam tomorrow" lurking...] | |
| 531 | |
| 532 "he that puts on truth and righteousness puts on immortality and | |
| 533 eternal life, and freedom; this is our house from heaven, and hath | |
| 534 power to save upon earth, and to take us up to heaven, to be with | |
| 535 God forever, in whom is the kingdom, power and glory over all, | |
| 536 blessed forevermore." | |
| 537 James Nayler _The Lamb's War_ (op. cit.) | |
| 538 | |
| 539 Early Friends felt that they were living in the same life and power | |
| 540 that the apostles [and the saints in general?] had known following | |
| 541 Pentecost. | |
| 542 | |
| 543 "_To those who are called Papists (and others) who Desires to know our Ground._ | |
| 544 | |
| 545 "The ground on which we are is that upon which the prophets and | |
| 546 apostles and all the holy men of God ever were; and on that | |
| 547 foundation are we builded, Jesus Christ himself, who is the light of | |
| 548 the world, which hath enlightened everyone that cometh into the | |
| 549 world, being the chief cornerstone: which light of Christ is one in | |
| 550 all consciences, by which we are led out of all the ways of darkness | |
| 551 into the light of life; which life is in the Spirit, contrary to all | |
| 552 the former lusts and pleasures which we lived in while we walked in | |
| 553 the flesh, after the course of this world, following the corrupt | |
| 554 practices and precepts of men." | |
| 555 James Nayler _A True Discovery of Faith_ (1654 and 1655) | |
| 556 | |
|
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557 ---------------Discussion |
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558 |
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559 BPD: The Jesus event being central? Not mentioned much? |
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560 |
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561 SM: Early Friends don't divide Jesus and Christ. They are accused of |
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562 ignoring the historical Jesus. But it was the Incarnation |
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563 (ref. Patristics) "God became human so that humans could become like |
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564 God". If it hadn't been for the Incarnation, and the catalyst of |
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565 Pentecost. It was always the intention that we should be the image of |
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566 God in Creation, and the Incarnation makes it possible again. |
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567 |
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568 Without the outward work [the Incarnation], the inward work wouldn't |
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569 be possible. |
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570 |
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571 BPD: It's Christ has come again, not Jesus has come again? |
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572 |
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573 SM: That depends on whether you think early Friends had an orthodox |
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574 Christology. Nayler, IMO, is not prepared to separate Christ and |
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575 Jesus. Once the Word became flesh in Jesus, that's a new reality. |
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576 Calvinist criticism "Jesus is living bodily at the right hand of the |
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577 Father, how could he possibly be in you?". |
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578 |
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579 Quakers are much closer to the Catholic and Lutheran position: the |
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580 ubiquity of Christ, Christ is not limited by time and space. |
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581 |
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582 TPA: What about the early _Christian_ emphasis on the idea that the |
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583 new reality has to be _communicated_, the Apostolic obligation, |
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584 prophecy, we are the ones who are _sent_. |
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585 |
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586 SM: Preaching campaign that was launched in 1654--55 was one of |
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587 greatest evangelical exercises in the history of Christianity. Not |
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588 "this is a new set of doctrines, which we want you to believe in" but |
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589 "this is an experience that we've had, and you need to join with it as |
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590 well!". It's full of great joy and fearlessness. But it wanes by the |
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591 end of the 1650s, as persecution ramps up. "Why hasn't it spread, why |
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592 aren't they getting on board before the boarding ramp is pulled up" |
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593 |
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594 TPA: So there is a sense among early Friends that there is a |
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595 particular time opening up? Because that was the case for early |
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596 Christians: "the time is at hand". There's an urgency here, this |
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597 _is_ the moment. |
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598 |
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599 SM: Definitely. Those expectations are very widespread in Puritain |
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600 England in the 1640s and 50s, because of the Civil War, you execute a |
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601 king. |
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602 |
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603 "Get in there quick, it's happening now and you might get left |
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604 behind." |
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605 |
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606 There were people beginning to experience a bit of this in the 1610s |
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607 and 20s, but the effort to bring order to the Anglican Church in the |
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608 1630s (Charles I and Archibishop Laud crack down on all dissent) |
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609 forces this underground (among Anglican clery in many cases), but |
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610 in 1642 the outbreak of the Civil War, and the falling away of the |
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611 power of the Church and censorship in that situation, releases all a |
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612 pent-up explosion of what had been repressed and you get the |
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613 proliferation of sects [including Quakers]. |
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614 |
| 213 | 615 --------------- SM Video 2 --------- |
| 616 | |
| 617 So what? | |
| 618 | |
| 619 Earthly authority and structures are not eternal | |
| 620 | |
| 621 Social divisions and hierarchy are a consequence of the Fall | |
| 622 | |
| 623 Those who set themselves above others and demand deference are guilty | |
| 624 of idolatry [wrt of a _human_ creation] | |
| 625 | |
| 626 However because _everything_ is changing, there's no particular | |
| 627 impetus towards planning, putting together a program of _earthly_ | |
| 628 changes. | |
| 629 | |
| 630 "The first man is proud and lofty, exalted above his brethren, a | |
| 631 self-lover, lives to the flesh, and follows the lusts of the flesh | |
| 632 in all things, and brings forth fruit to the flesh in all | |
| 633 things,... | |
| 634 | |
| 635 "The second man is humble and lowly, meek and full of love to all, | |
| 636 honors all men according to God, without respect of persons, would | |
| 637 have all to come to life, stands in the wisdom of God which is pure | |
| 638 and peaceable, is willing to be a fool to the world and serpent's | |
| 639 wisdom, content to suffer wrongs, buffetings, persecutions, | |
| 640 slanders, reviling, mocking, without seeking revenge, but bears all | |
| 641 the venom the serpent can cast upon him with patience and thereby | |
| 642 overcomes him and bruises his head, and is made perfect through | |
| 643 suffering, and counts it joy, and rejoices in the cross and loss of | |
| 644 all things that are visible, but looks at that which is eternal, | |
| 645 for he knows that he cannot have both; for to be a friend to the | |
| 646 world is the enemy of God." | |
| 647 | |
| 215 | 648 James Nayler _A Discovery of the First Wisdom from Beneath and the |
| 649 Second Wisdom from Above_ 1653 [first single-authored publication] | |
| 650 http://www.qhpress.org/texts/nayler/1wisdom.html | |
| 213 | 651 |
| 652 "God is against you... [7 times!]" | |
| 215 | 653 James Nayler ibid. |
| 213 | 654 |
| 655 [The Church [the bride of Christ] should remain silent so that Christ | |
| 656 [the husband] can be heard] | |
| 657 | |
| 215 | 658 "... he [a minister] began to accuse James [Nayler] for holding out |
| 659 a light that doth convince of sin, 'which,' saith the priest, 'all | |
| 660 have not.' To which James said, 'Put out one in all this great | |
| 661 multitude that dare say he hath it not.' Saith the priest, 'These | |
| 662 are all Christians; but if a Turk or Indian were here he would deny | |
| 663 it.' James said, 'Thou goest far for a proof; but if a Turk were | |
| 664 here he would witness against thee.'" | |
| 665 James Nayler and George Fox _Saul's Errand to Damascus_ 1653 | |
| 666 http://www.qhpress.org/texts/nayler/sauls.html | |
| 667 | |
| 668 Ref. Fox "I called an Indian to us" to rebut the doctor while | |
| 669 visiting the Governor of Virginia | |
| 670 Journal | |
| 671 [https://www.gutenberg.org/files/43031/43031-h/43031-h.htm#Page_527] | |
| 672 | |
| 673 SM: "When humans participate in the new humanity, they are brought back | |
| 674 [from the Fallen state] into right relations with God and the rest of | |
| 675 the creation. They understand who _they_ are, what _their_ place is | |
| 676 within the creation, and they understand how to use the rest of the | |
| 677 creation as God intended." [quotes?] | |
| 678 | |
| 679 "Now you shall see yourselves without this faith, perverse one to | |
| 680 another, fighting and brawling and devouring one another, sporting | |
| 681 and living in wantonness, fullness, gluttony, and abundance of | |
| 682 idleness, devourers of the just _and the creation_." [emphasis added] | |
| 683 James Nayler?Richard Farnworth _A Discovery of Faith_ 1653 | |
| 684 http://www.qhpress.org/texts/nayler/dfaith.html | |
| 685 | |
| 686 "Now I was come up in spirit through the flaming sword [back into | |
| 687 Eden, past the guardian angels, courtesy of Christ in me], into the | |
| 688 paradise of God. All things were new; and all the creation gave | |
| 689 unto me another smell than before, beyond what words can utter. I | |
| 690 knew nothing but pureness, and innocency, and righteousness; being | |
| 691 renewed into the image of God by Christ Jesus, to the state of | |
| 692 Adam, which he was in before he fell. The creation was opened to | |
| 693 me; and it was showed me how all things had their names given them | |
| 694 according to their nature and virtue." George Fox, op. cit. | |
| 695 https://www.gutenberg.org/files/43031/43031-h/43031-h.htm#Page_97 | |
| 696 | |
| 697 In the new humanity, Christ is the only true king | |
| 698 | |
| 699 Government is needed for a necessary holding action against evil when | |
| 700 we are still Fallen, but their time is coming to an end as they will | |
| 701 no longer be needed. | |
| 702 | |
| 703 "And you rulers of the nation, take heed how you step into the | |
| 704 throne of Christ or exalt yourselves in his kingdom, and mind what | |
| 705 power you are entrusted with by the Lord, and be faithful in that | |
| 706 as the ministers of God, to whom you are to account.o You are to | |
| 707 punish sin in whom it is, without respect of persons: and if you be | |
| 708 faithful herein you will find work enough in the nation." | |
| 709 | |
| 710 James Nayler _The Power and Glory of the Lord Shining out of the | |
| 711 North_ 1653 | |
| 712 http://www.qhpress.org/texts/nayler/north.html | |
| 713 | |
| 714 "There is no kingdom nor people can truly be said4 to be the | |
| 715 Lord's and his Christ's, but as they come to be guided and | |
| 716 governed by the law of his Spirit in their consciences, which | |
| 717 Spirit and anointinga all must wait for, even from the king that | |
| 718 sits on high to the least place of government in any people, that | |
| 719 with it all may know judgment and to do justice, which is of God | |
| 720 and not of men," | |
| 721 | |
| 722 James Nayler & Richard Hubberthorne _An Account from the Children | |
| 723 of Light_ 1660 | |
| 724 http://www.qhpress.org/texts/nayler/account.html | |
| 725 | |
| 726 *The Waning* -- Things begin to soften | |
| 727 | |
| 728 "I would not have any judge, that hereby we intend to destroy the | |
| 729 mutual relation, that either is betwixt prince and people, master | |
| 730 and servants, parents and children, nay not at all. We shall | |
| 731 evidence that our principle in these things hath no such tendency, | |
| 732 and that these natural relations are rather better established than | |
| 733 any ways hurt by it." | |
| 734 Robert Barclay _Apology_, Proposition 15 1678 | |
| 735 http://www.qhpress.org/texts/barclay/apology/prop15.html | |
| 736 | |
| 737 A pretty stark change from Nayler, possibly a necessary response to | |
| 738 persecution. | |
| 739 | |
| 740 Likewise for women: the principle of spiritual equality is maintained, | |
| 741 but its outward expression is reined in. Separation of men's and | |
| 742 women's business meeting. | |
| 743 | |
| 744 Quaker slave-holding, and particularly the situation in Barbados, also | |
| 745 represents a stepping back from the outward implications of the claim | |
| 746 to the spiritual equality of all humanity. | |
| 747 | |
| 748 "Fox affirmed the spiritual equality of slaves, while at the same time | |
| 749 advocatinga form of 'covenant slavery' which sought to ameliorate the | |
| 750 worst excesses of the practice." SM | |
| 751 | |
| 752 Inward spiritual liberation [affirmed] became disconnected from | |
| 753 outward social liberation [dampened]. | |
| 754 | |
| 755 SM summary of pre- vs. post-1600 Quakerism: | |
| 756 pre: The new way has come, and we are living in it now, the vanguard | |
| 757 of the new order | |
| 758 | |
| 759 The old ways remain, but are dying, [trouba not, one might say] | |
| 760 | |
| 761 post: The new way is strongly resisted, rejected or ignored | |
| 762 | |
| 763 The old ways begin to reassert themselves | |
| 764 | |
| 765 [People don't talk about living a transformed life in the image | |
| 766 of God anymore?] | |
| 767 | |
| 768 [Perhaps the early Friends depended too much on Cromwell? They never | |
| 769 even tried to create a little bit of Heaven on Earth in a territorial | |
| 770 sense, the way the Anabaptists did, of course with disasterous | |
| 771 consequences, at Munster] | |
| 772 | |
| 773 [I can't help wondering to what extent it was possible to maintain, | |
| 774 throughout the actions that make up most of 'ordinary' life, a sense | |
| 218 | 775 of living a transformed life... Stuart, you've immersed yourself in Nayler's |
| 215 | 776 writings, do you get a sense of how his life seemed to him? Was life |
| 777 in the image of God something that came and went, as it were?] | |
| 778 | |
| 779 BPD: Christine Trevitt (?) on how Quaker women's publications were | |
| 780 pushed back in the 1670s because they were too enthusiastic/prophetic | |
| 781 | |
| 782 TPA: Exactly the same in the early Christian communities! | |
| 783 | |
| 784 When you give power to a collective, it tends to move in a kind of | |
| 785 conservative direction [SM, about the loss of the 'mad' life in the | |
| 786 Spirit of the 1st generation of early Friends] | |
| 787 | |
| 788 For example wrt slavery, the radical position of individuals comes up | |
| 789 against the collective and gets booted out [ref. Benjamin Lay] | |
| 790 | |
| 791 ===========SM Two Kingdoms=========== | |
| 792 | |
| 793 Medieval Catholic Chrisendom: "Two Swords", that is kinds of using force: | |
| 794 The church can use (lethal) force to defend the faith; | |
| 795 The state can use (lethal) force to defend the social order. | |
| 796 | |
| 797 Reformation: Martin Luther talks about "Two Kingdom": | |
| 798 A Kingdom of the sword: the realm of public politics, the legitimate | |
| 799 authority of the state to use force; | |
| 800 A Kingdom of the Gospel: a personal, spiritual and inward realm, | |
| 801 ruled by the Gospel of Christ. | |
| 802 Both ordained by God, both legitimate. | |
| 803 One could operate in both, but respecting the relevant authority only | |
| 804 in the relevant sphere. | |
| 805 So you can, as it were, _ignore_ the teachings of Jesus in the public | |
| 806 sphere, and this allows the church and the state to avoid conflict. | |
| 807 | |
| 808 But for the _radical_ wing of the Reformation the two kingdoms were | |
| 809 different: | |
| 810 The temporal state | |
| 811 The eternal/heavenly state | |
| 812 and they are in _conflict_. And the Anabaptist expectation was that | |
| 813 the temporal kingdoms were dying and the kingdom of Christ was coming. | |
| 814 And this is the one the early Quakers adopted. | |
| 815 | |
| 816 When this didn't happen (for both groups), and the state fights back, | |
| 817 what do groups do wrt the two kingdoms view? You see yourselves as a | |
| 818 "faithful remnant", managing your boundaries, and keeping yourselves | |
| 819 as perserving the purity of their alternative vision, and so taking | |
| 820 strict control of membership and members' behaviour, "in the meantime". | |
|
216
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821 |
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822 |
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823 ========== Ben Pink Dandelion - _Later Quakers_ ========= |
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824 |
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825 Different churches have different ways to wait faithfully, in the |
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826 meantime, prior to the end time. |
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827 |
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828 For early Friends, we've come to the end of waiting, the Future has become the Now |
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829 |
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830 The New Covenant has come in to play. |
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831 |
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832 The rest are being held back by their ministers, so no tithes. |
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833 |
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834 The Christian calendar is not needed, the liturgy of the Mass is not |
|
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835 needed, they were part of the needs of meantime, focussed on |
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836 remembering the First Coming. Ref. Corinthians 11:26 |
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837 |
|
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838 "For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim |
|
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839 the Lord's death _until he comes_." 1 Cor. 11:26 NRSV [emphasis |
|
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840 added] |
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841 |
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842 Our communion is Revelation 3:20; Revelation 8:1 |
|
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843 |
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844 "Listen! I am standing at the door, knocking; if you hear my voice |
|
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845 and open the door, I will come in to you and eat with you, and you |
|
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846 with me." Rev. 3:20 NRSV |
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847 |
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848 "When the Lamb opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven |
|
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849 for about half an hour." Rev. 8:1 NRSV |
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850 |
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851 No need for separated buildings/times/priests/outward sacraments. |
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852 |
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853 A Second Coming liturgy, _after_ the reunion of Heaven and Earth, |
|
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854 _after_ Jesus has come. |
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855 |
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856 No particular date, it is _unfolding_, a "realising eschatology". |
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857 |
|
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858 There's a debate in Quaker studies as to when a second period starts, |
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859 call it Restoration Quakerism. Quaker Act of 1662, or the shift in |
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860 the Quaker message that begins in 1666, or maybe 1656 with the |
|
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861 beginning of corporate testing, a slightly less prophetic Quakerism |
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862 (ref. Moore and Allen). Joke: perhaps the first period only lasted a |
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863 couple of weeks. |
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864 |
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865 Fox goes into some despair in 1658 when Cromwell dies, but recovers in |
|
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866 1659 cheers up a bit. |
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867 |
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868 C.f. 1656 A Trumpet sounded forth out of Zion, with 23 targets, the |
|
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869 first is Oliver Cromwell. |
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870 |
|
217
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871 A call to repentance, you've let us down. It's in your face, |
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872 full-blooded spiritual warfare, the Lamb's War. |
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873 |
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874 Three years later, Edward Burrough is writing to government saying "be |
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875 nice to us", "are you setting a good example". |
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876 |
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877 Fell, then Fox, in 1661, "we utterly deny all outward wars", c.f. the |
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878 Fifth Monarchy Men: we're harmless and innocent. |
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879 |
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880 The beginning of the Peace Testimony, maybe, but the end of a |
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881 prophetic visionary outward approach. Instead, a pragmatic Quakerism |
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882 that's trying to cut a deal, to ensure the survival. |
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883 |
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884 By 1666 the rhetoric of Heaven on Earth is pretty much gone, replaced |
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885 by a lot of emphasis of regulating the church. The beginning of the |
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886 meantime == the Quietist period. A snooze button has been pressed. |
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887 |
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888 If you no longer think the future is no longer now. Barclay hedges |
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889 his bets on perfection. |
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890 |
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891 Entering a meantime _could_ have meant a change of liturgy, |
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892 instituting some outward forms of remembrance and expectation. But we |
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893 didn't. Because the stillness still worked, to bring us into a sense |
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894 of God's presence. |
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895 |
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896 Of course, the liturgy does change in some parts of the Quakerism, but |
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897 not until the late 19th century (1875). |
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898 |
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899 How is humanity to wait faithfully? We're into the 2nd generation of |
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900 Quakers, perhaps not having had the transformative experience |
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901 themselves. |
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902 |
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903 "I knew I should be undone forever unless I experienced that power |
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904 that had wrought such a change in my mother and father" [ref?] |
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905 |
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906 Barclay writes a lot about convincement, will come to _everybody_ == |
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907 Universal Elect. God will decide when the Day of Visitation will |
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908 come, perhaps not until the hour of death. |
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909 But you may _outlive_ your Day. And that's an end to it. This is |
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910 (another kind of c.f. Calvinist) spirituality of anxiety. |
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911 |
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912 Diligence is required. Already by 1670s and 80s, it takes longer, |
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913 it's not instantaneous, it _is_ transformative, but with less |
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914 certainty and clarity than formerly. In the 18th c. it's no longer |
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915 in the _image_ of God, but working _under_ God, along side the rest of |
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916 (corrupt) society. So the hedge goes up around the Quaker community. |
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917 |
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918 The last article of Barclay's Apology is not about Heaven on Earth, |
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919 it's about putting aside fiction, music, entertainment of any kind. |
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920 Plain speech persists, plain dress becomes very strict. |
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921 |
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922 Contradiction between in principle interior emphasis and in practice |
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923 exterior regulation of identity. |
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924 |
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925 Paused 34:59 |
| 218 | 926 ========= Closing session ========== |
| 927 TA: Had a my own convincement experience [30 yrs ago] | |
| 928 As much about the past (how limited my life was) as about the | |
| 929 future | |
| 930 After 6 months, "it settled", and wasn't solitary | |
| 931 | |
| 932 "Surrendering oneself to a hearing and obeying relationship with | |
| 933 God in spirit" | |
| 934 | |
| 935 This is the key to Heaven on Earth. | |
| 936 | |
| 937 We do keep trying to hold on to a continuing dissatisfaction with | |
| 938 the way things are. | |
| 939 | |
| 940 Heaven on Earth needs midwives | |
| 941 | |
| 942 SM: | |
| 943 | |
| 944 BPD: (Carol Spencer Holiness) "Spiritual transformation on a Greyhound | |
| 945 bus" | |
| 946 Something resonates at a deep emotional level (about the right theology). | |
| 947 The Future is Now: A _collective_ imperative (as the "School of Midwives"). | |
| 948 A problem for the ecumentical project ("Come on, catch up"!) | |
| 949 c.f. "We hold these things in trust for the wider church" | |
| 950 | |
| 951 --------- Mary Lou Levitt ------- | |
| 952 It was not by reading, or even sitting in MfW, that brought me to a | |
| 953 sense of being guided, but rather when I had gotten up and gone out | |
| 954 and tried to _do_ something. | |
| 955 | |
| 956 1 John 4 17 | |
| 957 | |
| 958 BPD: C.f. AA meetings -- You _have_ to go to meetings | |
| 959 | |
| 960 SM: Unless you are carrying your cross... [Nayler, _Milk for | |
| 961 babes..._] | |
| 962 [c.f. Didst thou submit?] |