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cleaned up a bit
author Henry S Thompson <ht@inf.ed.ac.uk>
date Mon, 09 Sep 2024 17:29:28 +0100
parents abb1b1e2f6fc
children 46b1600e1d55
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1 (Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai. Go Unlimited to remove this message.) 1 HST (0:00 - 0:00)
2 2
3 [Speaker 1] (0:00 - 0:00)
4 Record. 3 Record.
5 4
6 [Speaker 2] (0:02 - 0:04) 5 BCS (0:02 - 0:04)
6
7 It says recording here. 7 It says recording here.
8 8
9 [Speaker 1] (0:04 - 0:16) 9 HST (0:04 - 0:16)
10 Yep, and it just, I clicked it as you spoke or just before or something like that. How are you doing? Well, I said this last time and you disagreed with me, but you look okay. 10
11 11 Yep, and it just, I clicked it as you spoke or just before or
12 [Speaker 2] (0:16 - 0:35) 12 something like that. How are you doing? Well, I said this last time
13 Yes, so I actually think I am okay this time. Good, good, good. I'm a little compromised in various ways, which I'm going to tell you about. 13 and you disagreed with me, but you look okay.
14 14
15 [Speaker 1] (0:36 - 0:37) 15 BCS (0:16 - 0:35)
16
17 Yes, so I actually think I am okay this time. Good, good, good. I'm a
18 little compromised in various ways, which I'm going to tell you about.
19
20 HST (0:36 - 0:37)
21
16 Sure, well. 22 Sure, well.
17 23
18 [Speaker 2] (0:40 - 0:44) 24 BCS (0:40 - 0:44)
19 One of them being that I haven't done my homework for a reason I want to try to explain, actually. 25
20 26 One of them being that I haven't done my homework for a reason I want
21 [Speaker 1] (0:46 - 1:50) 27 to try to explain, actually.
22 Well, I mean, it was short notice, but I figure we do this, well, I don't know, it's like going, this is a comparison I use too often in too many ways. It's like we used to do with the kids, which was that we would go to the West Coast of Scotland for the Maybank holiday weekend every year. And without paying any attention to what the weather forecast was, because you needed to book in advance to get a cheap place and so on. 28
23 29 HST (0:46 - 1:50)
24 And sometimes that meant famously, and family history is a good thing, eating our sandwiches in a phone booth on the ferry pier between Skye and Rase, because it was raining too hard. Didn't want to sit in the car to have our picnic. But sometimes it meant swimming off white sand beaches in Ariseg in 20 degree weather, and it looked and felt like the Caribbean. 30
25 31 Well, I mean, it was short notice, but I figure we do this, well, I
26 So you win some and you lose some. And if this is not as well prepared as you'd like, then we'll talk anyway. 32 don't know, it's like going, this is a comparison I use too often in
27 33 too many ways. It's like we used to do with the kids, which was that
28 [Speaker 2] (1:51 - 2:57) 34 we would go to the West Coast of Scotland for the Maybank holiday
29 We'll talk anyway. And I have a question about substance. So here's the problem. 35 weekend every year. And without paying any attention to what the
30 36 weather forecast was, because you needed to book in advance to get a
31 I have to get the final draft of the Reflections book to the press by July 8th, which deadline I'm not going to make. But I need to make it enough that my good standing with the press remains such that I can get an extension. And I think given the uncertainty about my lifespan, to say nothing of maybe just efficiency overall, I just need to do that. 37 cheap place and so on.
32 38
33 So this morning, I kind of thought, look, am I going to spend the morning reading old versions of God Approximately, which I would like to do? And I slapped myself on the other wrist. Is that a well founded instructional? 39 And sometimes that meant famously, and family history is a good thing,
34 40 eating our sandwiches in a phone booth on the ferry pier between Skye
35 [Speaker 1] (2:57 - 2:59) 41 and Rase, because it was raining too hard. Didn't want to sit in the
42 car to have our picnic. But sometimes it meant swimming off white sand
43 beaches in Ariseg in 20 degree weather, and it looked and felt like
44 the Caribbean.
45
46 So you win some and you lose some. And if this is not as well prepared
47 as you'd like, then we'll talk anyway.
48
49 BCS (1:51 - 2:57)
50
51 We'll talk anyway. And I have a question about substance. So here's
52 the problem.
53
54 I have to get the final draft of the Reflections book to the press by
55 July 8th, which deadline I'm not going to make. But I need to make it
56 enough that my good standing with the press remains such that I can
57 get an extension. And I think given the uncertainty about my lifespan,
58 to say nothing of maybe just efficiency overall, I just need to do
59 that.
60
61 So this morning, I kind of thought, look, am I going to spend the
62 morning reading old versions of God Approximately, which I would like
63 to do? And I slapped myself on the other wrist. Is that a well founded
64 instructional?
65
66 HST (2:57 - 2:59)
67
36 Probably not. But anyway. 68 Probably not. But anyway.
37 69
38 [Speaker 2] (3:01 - 3:08) 70 BCS (3:01 - 3:08)
71
39 And have been working on that. 72 And have been working on that.
40 73
41 [Speaker 1] (3:08 - 3:13) 74 HST (3:08 - 3:13)
42 That's that. I mean, you you're the only person who can correctly set your priorities. 75
43 76 That's that. I mean, you you're the only person who can correctly set
44 [Speaker 2] (3:14 - 3:19) 77 your priorities.
45 Right. So I think I have to do that. Now, July 8th is not very far away. 78
46 79 BCS (3:14 - 3:19)
47 [Speaker 1] (3:20 - 3:20) 80
81 Right. So I think I have to do that. Now, July 8th is not very far
82 away.
83
84 HST (3:20 - 3:20)
85
48 No, it's not. 86 No, it's not.
49 87
50 [Speaker 2] (3:21 - 3:34) 88 BCS (3:21 - 3:34)
51 So that might mean delaying our project by a rather short amount of time. But realism, the aforementioned realism means it'll probably mean deferring it for longer than that. 89
52 90 So that might mean delaying our project by a rather short amount of
53 [Speaker 1] (3:34 - 3:42) 91 time. But realism, the aforementioned realism means it'll probably
54 But understood. But we can we can reduce, at the very least, reduce the frequency. But I may try to keep it ticking over one way or another. 92 mean deferring it for longer than that.
55 93
56 [Speaker 2] (3:42 - 3:46) 94 HST (3:34 - 3:42)
57 Yeah, sure, sure. Well, so here's a question, if I can just plunge in. Maybe there are other. 95
58 96 But understood. But we can we can reduce, at the very least, reduce
59 [Speaker 1] (3:46 - 3:46) 97 the frequency. But I may try to keep it ticking over one way or
98 another.
99
100 BCS (3:42 - 3:46)
101
102 Yeah, sure, sure. Well, so here's a question, if I can just plunge
103 in. Maybe there are other.
104
105 HST (3:46 - 3:46)
106
60 Of course. 107 Of course.
61 108
62 [Speaker 2] (3:47 - 4:15) 109 BCS (3:47 - 4:15)
63 Yeah, go. So I was struck when I wrote the postscript note to our last meeting. By how I was framing everything. 110
64 111 Yeah, go. So I was struck when I wrote the postscript note to our last
65 In terms of. Well, actually, I don't even remember the last note. Hang on a second. 112 meeting. By how I was framing everything.
113
114 In terms of. Well, actually, I don't even remember the last note. Hang
115 on a second.
66 116
67 Maybe I should take a look at it. 117 Maybe I should take a look at it.
68 118
69 [Speaker 1] (4:16 - 4:16) 119 HST (4:16 - 4:16)
120
70 I should too. 121 I should too.
71 122
72 [Speaker 2] (4:17 - 4:18) 123 BCS (4:17 - 4:18)
124
73 Was it email? Probably. 125 Was it email? Probably.
74 126
75 [Speaker 1] (4:18 - 4:27) 127 HST (4:18 - 4:27)
128
76 I believe. Well, I'm sorry. If it was an email, then I don't have it. 129 I believe. Well, I'm sorry. If it was an email, then I don't have it.
77 130
78 But that doesn't mean that it's not worth looking at. All right. 131 But that doesn't mean that it's not worth looking at. All right.
79 132
80 [Speaker 2] (4:28 - 4:39) 133 BCS (4:28 - 4:39)
134
81 So I'm desperately waiting. 135 So I'm desperately waiting.
82 136
83 [Speaker 1] (4:45 - 4:50) 137 HST (4:45 - 4:50)
138
84 I gather from Jim that some progress has been made on the map project. 139 I gather from Jim that some progress has been made on the map project.
85 140
86 [Speaker 2] (4:52 - 4:53) 141 BCS (4:52 - 4:53)
142
87 On which project? 143 On which project?
88 144
89 [Speaker 1] (4:54 - 4:57) 145 HST (4:54 - 4:57)
146
90 The Save Brian's Mac project. 147 The Save Brian's Mac project.
91 148
92 [Speaker 2] (4:58 - 5:02) 149 BCS (4:58 - 5:02)
150
93 Oh, yes. But not enough to have the Mac saved. 151 Oh, yes. But not enough to have the Mac saved.
94 152
95 [Speaker 1] (5:05 - 5:11) 153 HST (5:05 - 5:11)
96 Well, he was hopeful of his next meeting with you, but maybe it didn't happen that way. 154
97 155 Well, he was hopeful of his next meeting with you, but maybe it didn't
98 [Speaker 2] (5:15 - 5:16) 156 happen that way.
157
158 BCS (5:15 - 5:16)
159
99 So when did I? 160 So when did I?
100 161
101 [Speaker 1] (5:16 - 5:23) 162 HST (5:16 - 5:23)
163
102 Okay, here we are. Call this week. No, that was quick thought. 164 Okay, here we are. Call this week. No, that was quick thought.
103 165
104 It says here. 166 It says here.
105 167
106 [Speaker 2] (5:23 - 5:24) 168 BCS (5:23 - 5:24)
169
107 Oh, that's it. Okay. 170 Oh, that's it. Okay.
108 171
109 [Speaker 1] (5:25 - 5:25) 172 HST (5:25 - 5:25)
173
110 Right. 174 Right.
111 175
112 [Speaker 2] (5:26 - 5:53) 176 BCS (5:26 - 5:53)
177
113 All right. So yeah, I've got it. Right. 178 All right. So yeah, I've got it. Right.
114 179
115 So as in the first paragraph, I say, call these the historical and metaphysical approaches. 180 So as in the first paragraph, I say, call these the historical and
116 181 metaphysical approaches.
117 [Speaker 1] (5:54 - 5:54) 182
183 HST (5:54 - 5:54)
184
118 Right. 185 Right.
119 186
120 [Speaker 2] (5:55 - 6:09) 187 BCS (5:55 - 6:09)
121 And what I have not done is read any. So what you think you have or what you know that you have is something like version 11. Is that right? 188
122 189 And what I have not done is read any. So what you think you have or
123 [Speaker 1] (6:09 - 6:18) 190 what you know that you have is something like version 11. Is that
124 That's correct. 2009 version 11, which I would say in terms of this dichotomy is entirely the historical approach. 191 right?
125 192
126 [Speaker 2] (6:19 - 6:19) 193 HST (6:09 - 6:18)
194
195 That's correct. 2009 version 11, which I would say in terms of this
196 dichotomy is entirely the historical approach.
197
198 BCS (6:19 - 6:19)
199
127 Okay. 200 Okay.
128 201
129 [Speaker 1] (6:19 - 6:37) 202 HST (6:19 - 6:37)
130 And I think that's consistent with the note at the top, which says, in previous versions of this, I tried to produce a metaphysics, which would underpin what I'm talking about, but didn't get far enough to make it worth reproducing or something like that. 203
131 204 And I think that's consistent with the note at the top, which says, in
132 [Speaker 2] (6:38 - 6:41) 205 previous versions of this, I tried to produce a metaphysics, which
206 would underpin what I'm talking about, but didn't get far enough to
207 make it worth reproducing or something like that.
208
209 BCS (6:38 - 6:41)
210
133 And I did say in previous versions of this. 211 And I did say in previous versions of this.
134 212
135 [Speaker 1] (6:41 - 8:23) 213 HST (6:41 - 8:23)
136 I believe so. Let me just get the fact of the matter in front of me, which it nearly is. In fact, wait a minute. 214
215 I believe so. Let me just get the fact of the matter in front of me,
216 which it nearly is. In fact, wait a minute.
137 217
138 I'm just looking at the wrong place. This one. Yes, it is. 218 I'm just looking at the wrong place. This one. Yes, it is.
139 219
140 A number of manuscripts have been circulated under this title over the last 15 years. Right. This one lacks any sketch of a worldview exhibiting the characteristics described. 220 A number of manuscripts have been circulated under this title over the
141 221 last 15 years. Right. This one lacks any sketch of a worldview
142 I presume that means described below as it were. Somewhat in response to the first version, which tried to provide such a view without explanation of what was interesting or mattered about it. If it seems worthwhile, I may someday incorporate all the various versions into a single long, it says short, monograph. 222 exhibiting the characteristics described.
143 223
144 [Speaker 2] (8:27 - 8:28) 224 I presume that means described below as it were. Somewhat in response
225 to the first version, which tried to provide such a view without
226 explanation of what was interesting or mattered about it. If it seems
227 worthwhile, I may someday incorporate all the various versions into a
228 single long, it says short, monograph.
229
230 BCS (8:27 - 8:28)
231
145 Stereograph. 232 Stereograph.
146 233
147 [Speaker 1] (8:29 - 8:31) 234 HST (8:29 - 8:31)
235
148 Yes, something like that. 236 Yes, something like that.
149 237
150 [Speaker 2] (8:34 - 10:57) 238 BCS (8:34 - 10:57)
239
151 Right. Okay. Well, that's very helpful actually to me. 240 Right. Okay. Well, that's very helpful actually to me.
152 241
153 Bob, thank you for finding that. Yes, I think that longer monograph, the yet to be produced longer monograph is what I feel as if we're aiming at. And I don't actually know whether I made any attempt to say that these lead to the same view. 242 Bob, thank you for finding that. Yes, I think that longer monograph,
154 243 the yet to be produced longer monograph is what I feel as if we're
155 I have actually thought about that. Okay. So, let me actually recite from memory four or five sentences and tell me if they ring a bell. 244 aiming at. And I don't actually know whether I made any attempt to say
156 245 that these lead to the same view.
157 Have you ever read them? Goes something like this. Start at the beginning. 246
158 247 I have actually thought about that. Okay. So, let me actually recite
159 That is, start at what those who'd like to start at the beginning start with. Bosons, fermions, quarks, assemblages pressed into atoms and molecules and DNA and so on and so forth. And then the second paragraph saying, of course, something like that's not a beginning. 248 from memory four or five sentences and tell me if they ring a bell.
160 249
161 Many will argue, whatever. And then something like, but actually it doesn't matter where we start. We'll end up in the same place. 250 Have you ever read them? Goes something like this. Start at the
162 251 beginning.
163 So, in the media there would be something like other people would say start with stories or something like that. Anyway. 252
164 253 That is, start at what those who'd like to start at the beginning
165 [Speaker 1] (10:58 - 12:12) 254 start with. Bosons, fermions, quarks, assemblages pressed into atoms
166 I see what you're saying. Okay. I mean, I think it's important that you, well, it changes where you go next to have something like the storyline, because otherwise it's all just about where you cut the physics. 255 and molecules and DNA and so on and so forth. And then the second
167 256 paragraph saying, of course, something like that's not a beginning.
168 And that I think is not enough. That's just what I think of as, I had a version of this conversation last week with my regular Quaker interlocutor. There are these two questions, which I believe, which I tend to attribute to Kant, but I may get wrong. 257
169 258 Many will argue, whatever. And then something like, but actually it
170 Why is there something rather than nothing? And how would I live my life? And if you talk to Dominicans, for instance, they will happily talk about one or the other, but usually find it challenging to see what the relationship is between likely answers to the first and likely answers to the second. 259 doesn't matter where we start. We'll end up in the same place.
171 260
172 That's another way of saying what it is you're trying to bring together, I think. Right. 261 So, in the media there would be something like other people would say
173 262 start with stories or something like that. Anyway.
174 [Speaker 2] (12:12 - 13:08) 263
175 I think so. Yeah, I think so. And I think what I put in the note after the historical approach is sort of a story about how our understanding of Rameans and Bosons, as it were, has been pressed into service as a grounds for normativity and maybe objectivity and so on and so forth. 264 HST (10:58 - 12:12)
265
266 I see what you're saying. Okay. I mean, I think it's important that
267 you, well, it changes where you go next to have something like the
268 storyline, because otherwise it's all just about where you cut the
269 physics.
270
271 And that I think is not enough. That's just what I think of as, I had
272 a version of this conversation last week with my regular Quaker
273 interlocutor. There are these two questions, which I believe, which I
274 tend to attribute to Kant, but I may get wrong.
275
276 Why is there something rather than nothing? And how would I live my
277 life? And if you talk to Dominicans, for instance, they will happily
278 talk about one or the other, but usually find it challenging to see
279 what the relationship is between likely answers to the first and
280 likely answers to the second.
281
282 That's another way of saying what it is you're trying to bring
283 together, I think. Right.
284
285 BCS (12:12 - 13:08)
286
287 I think so. Yeah, I think so. And I think what I put in the note after
288 the historical approach is sort of a story about how our understanding
289 of Rameans and Bosons, as it were, has been pressed into service as a
290 grounds for normativity and maybe objectivity and so on and so forth.
176 291
177 I don't think successfully, but there is... 292 I don't think successfully, but there is...
178 293
179 [Speaker 1] (13:08 - 13:13) 294 HST (13:08 - 13:13)
295
180 That's really the first large paragraph in the email. 296 That's really the first large paragraph in the email.
181 297
182 [Speaker 2] (13:14 - 13:19) 298 BCS (13:14 - 13:19)
299
183 Right. Which I've now buried under lots of windows. 300 Right. Which I've now buried under lots of windows.
184 301
185 [Speaker 1] (13:20 - 13:32) 302 HST (13:20 - 13:32)
186 Well, the pure mechanism of classical science, then rationality with reference to Friggen logic, then normativity, and the current paradigm of deriving it from the evolutionary field, etc. Right. 303
187 304 Well, the pure mechanism of classical science, then rationality with
188 [Speaker 2] (13:42 - 15:20) 305 reference to Friggen logic, then normativity, and the current paradigm
189 Yeah. So then the argument would go something like this, that the only tenable version of the metaphysical approach, well, sorry, the only tenable version of both approaches ends up being indistinguishable from the tenable version of the other. And one crucial factor in that, I believe, is that both stories have to do justice to our being here. 306 of deriving it from the evolutionary field, etc. Right.
190 307
191 [Speaker 1] (15:22 - 15:31) 308 BCS (13:42 - 15:20)
192 Yeah. I mean, I've been thinking... You know the phrase, the thing, which I think is very bizarrely labeled, the anthropic principle. 309
193 310 Yeah. So then the argument would go something like this, that the only
194 [Speaker 2] (15:31 - 15:32) 311 tenable version of the metaphysical approach, well, sorry, the only
312 tenable version of both approaches ends up being indistinguishable
313 from the tenable version of the other. And one crucial factor in that,
314 I believe, is that both stories have to do justice to our being here.
315
316 HST (15:22 - 15:31)
317
318 Yeah. I mean, I've been thinking... You know the phrase, the thing,
319 which I think is very bizarrely labeled, the anthropic principle.
320
321 BCS (15:31 - 15:32)
322
195 Right. 323 Right.
196 324
197 [Speaker 1] (15:32 - 15:42) 325 HST (15:32 - 15:42)
198 Which attempts to dissolve the first of the Kantian questions by saying, because if there weren't something, we wouldn't be here to ask the question, get over it. 326
199 327 Which attempts to dissolve the first of the Kantian questions by
200 [Speaker 2] (15:45 - 16:03) 328 saying, because if there weren't something, we wouldn't be here to ask
201 Yes, but I think that the anthropic principle is misapplied radically because they try to understand what the world needs to be like in order to support life or inquiry or something like that. 329 the question, get over it.
202 330
203 [Speaker 1] (16:05 - 16:31) 331 BCS (15:45 - 16:03)
332
333 Yes, but I think that the anthropic principle is misapplied radically
334 because they try to understand what the world needs to be like in
335 order to support life or inquiry or something like that.
336
337 HST (16:05 - 16:31)
338
204 Yeah. I mean, yeah, certainly. Yeah. 339 Yeah. I mean, yeah, certainly. Yeah.
205 340
206 What little I remember of the time I heard somebody talk about this at length was Planck's constant is what it is. And the fact that if you varied it by not very much in either direction, nothing would work isn't something that needs explanation because it evidently is the case. 341 What little I remember of the time I heard somebody talk about this at
207 342 length was Planck's constant is what it is. And the fact that if you
208 [Speaker 2] (16:31 - 16:31) 343 varied it by not very much in either direction, nothing would work
344 isn't something that needs explanation because it evidently is the
345 case.
346
347 BCS (16:31 - 16:31)
348
209 Right. 349 Right.
210 350
211 [Speaker 1] (16:32 - 16:52) 351 HST (16:32 - 16:52)
212 And if it weren't the case, I mean, yes, exactly. It is at least of minor theoretical interest to establish what the bounding box is within which we would still be here to ask that question. But having done that, there's nothing more to be said. 352
213 353 And if it weren't the case, I mean, yes, exactly. It is at least of
214 [Speaker 2] (16:53 - 16:53) 354 minor theoretical interest to establish what the bounding box is
355 within which we would still be here to ask that question. But having
356 done that, there's nothing more to be said.
357
358 BCS (16:53 - 16:53)
359
215 Right. 360 Right.
216 361
217 [Speaker 1] (16:55 - 17:06) 362 HST (16:55 - 17:06)
218 But I think you're... So, I mean, I don't think that changes the availability of both projects, essentially. 363
219 364 But I think you're... So, I mean, I don't think that changes the
220 [Speaker 2] (17:06 - 17:53) 365 availability of both projects, essentially.
221 I think that's right. And I actually think, you know, this is... Well, I'm going to have to agree to the long rather than short. 366
222 367 BCS (17:06 - 17:53)
223 I'm assuming if I go down this pathway, but I actually think the fact... Well, as I put it, which is transparent to nobody, the ontological warrant for the epistemic fact that we use differential equations to express physical laws is actually... I mean, I don't know if I said this in the objects book, but anyway, underlies the Dysus of the world, which I think is fundamental to consciousness and self and various things like that. 368
224 369 I think that's right. And I actually think, you know, this is... Well,
225 [Speaker 1] (17:56 - 18:08) 370 I'm going to have to agree to the long rather than short.
226 But because of the uncertain... No, not the uncertainty because, I mean, is this... What I remember from the objects book, which I've already apologized for is very little, is about the importance of slop. 371
227 372 I'm assuming if I go down this pathway, but I actually think the
228 [Speaker 2] (18:09 - 18:11) 373 fact... Well, as I put it, which is transparent to nobody, the
374 ontological warrant for the epistemic fact that we use differential
375 equations to express physical laws is actually... I mean, I don't know
376 if I said this in the objects book, but anyway, underlies the Dysus of
377 the world, which I think is fundamental to consciousness and self and
378 various things like that.
379
380 HST (17:56 - 18:08)
381
382 But because of the uncertain... No, not the uncertainty because, I
383 mean, is this... What I remember from the objects book, which I've
384 already apologized for is very little, is about the importance of
385 slop.
386
387 BCS (18:09 - 18:11)
388
229 Yeah, no, that's a different thing. 389 Yeah, no, that's a different thing.
230 390
231 [Speaker 1] (18:11 - 18:14) 391 HST (18:11 - 18:14)
392
232 That is a different thing. Okay. Nevermind then. 393 That is a different thing. Okay. Nevermind then.
233 394
234 Rasson. 395 Rasson.
235 396
236 [Speaker 2] (18:20 - 18:25) 397 BCS (18:20 - 18:25)
398
237 What's the... Rasson regardless? 399 What's the... Rasson regardless?
238 400
239 [Speaker 1] (18:26 - 18:26) 401 HST (18:26 - 18:26)
402
240 Yeah. 403 Yeah.
241 404
242 [Speaker 2] (18:27 - 19:54) 405 BCS (18:27 - 19:54)
243 I'm not sure I should accept the regardless just now, but yeah, the Dysus stuff is, I think, important to self. And something else that's interesting, this is going to sound a little bit like a non-sequitur, but I think it's not for obvious reasons. The fact that LLMs are based on language is, I think, possibly consequential, but possibly not the reason for their success. 406
244 407 I'm not sure I should accept the regardless just now, but yeah, the
245 Because I think the power of them stems from the fact that the relationality that they encode is so stupefyingly huge that all the content of the state of the network is bizarrely non-conceptual in the sense of that. 408 Dysus stuff is, I think, important to self. And something else that's
246 409 interesting, this is going to sound a little bit like a non-sequitur,
247 [Speaker 1] (19:58 - 20:16) 410 but I think it's not for obvious reasons. The fact that LLMs are based
248 Absolutely. I mean, they got somewhere by not being representational. Well, not being representational. 411 on language is, I think, possibly consequential, but possibly not the
249 412 reason for their success.
250 Sorry, but not being explicitly representational. That no amount of additional funding to Doug Lennon and company would ever have gotten to. 413
251 414 Because I think the power of them stems from the fact that the
252 [Speaker 2] (20:17 - 20:25) 415 relationality that they encode is so stupefyingly huge that all the
253 Right, right. Exactly. How to say that well is not trivial, but I completely agree. 416 content of the state of the network is bizarrely non-conceptual in the
254 417 sense of that.
255 [Speaker 1] (20:26 - 20:44) 418
256 Yeah, I mean, it would be useful in the indefinitely unforeseeable future to have a conversation involving Fernando Pereira about this, because... Have you ever met Fernando? Not clearly. 419 HST (19:58 - 20:16)
257 420
258 [Speaker 2] (20:44 - 20:51) 421 Absolutely. I mean, they got somewhere by not being
259 Oh, yeah. I knew him. God knows if he was a student, but anyway, 100 years ago. 422 representational. Well, not being representational.
260 423
261 [Speaker 1] (20:51 - 22:51) 424 Sorry, but not being explicitly representational. That no amount of
262 No, he was our student, because I did his PhD oral. Oh, I see. No, but I think he was in California at the time of the oral, so it's possible. 425 additional funding to Doug Lennon and company would ever have gotten
263 426 to.
264 It doesn't matter. Anyway, he was here six months ago for a guest talk during our 60th anniversary celebrations. And the talk was interesting, but not great and not recorded. 427
265 428 BCS (20:17 - 20:25)
266 But lunch beforehand, which was just me and him and one other person, was hugely more valuable, because he was expanding to an audience that could hear of the two of us on his anger about the fact, about the impact of his own company's work, indirectly in terms of open AI, but in chat GPT and so on. Because he's recently changed within Google, being responsible for the natural language work to being responsible for the sort of theory practice interface within Google. And he's very angry about the way in which people are treating the natural language problem as having now been solved and or being soluble only by the technologies of LLMs. But what he did for us in that conversation, and I wish I had recorded it, was give me a much clearer sense of the scale of the base model. And also the scale of the priming that it gets in order to make it a question answer. 429
267 430 Right, right. Exactly. How to say that well is not trivial, but I
268 [Speaker 2] (22:51 - 22:52) 431 completely agree.
432
433 HST (20:26 - 20:44)
434
435 Yeah, I mean, it would be useful in the indefinitely unforeseeable
436 future to have a conversation involving Fernando Pereira about this,
437 because... Have you ever met Fernando? Not clearly.
438
439 BCS (20:44 - 20:51)
440
441 Oh, yeah. I knew him. God knows if he was a student, but anyway, 100
442 years ago.
443
444 HST (20:51 - 22:51)
445
446 No, he was our student, because I did his PhD oral. Oh, I see. No, but
447 I think he was in California at the time of the oral, so it's
448 possible.
449
450 It doesn't matter. Anyway, he was here six months ago for a guest talk
451 during our 60th anniversary celebrations. And the talk was
452 interesting, but not great and not recorded.
453
454 But lunch beforehand, which was just me and him and one other person,
455 was hugely more valuable, because he was expanding to an audience that
456 could hear of the two of us on his anger about the fact, about the
457 impact of his own company's work, indirectly in terms of open AI, but
458 in chat GPT and so on. Because he's recently changed within Google,
459 being responsible for the natural language work to being responsible
460 for the sort of theory practice interface within Google. And he's very
461 angry about the way in which people are treating the natural language
462 problem as having now been solved and or being soluble only by the
463 technologies of LLMs. But what he did for us in that conversation, and
464 I wish I had recorded it, was give me a much clearer sense of the
465 scale of the base model. And also the scale of the priming that it
466 gets in order to make it a question answer.
467
468 BCS (22:51 - 22:52)
469
269 Yeah. What's that called? 470 Yeah. What's that called?
270 471
271 [Speaker 1] (22:53 - 22:56) 472 HST (22:53 - 22:56)
473
272 The prompt. It's not the prompt, but it's something. 474 The prompt. It's not the prompt, but it's something.
273 475
274 [Speaker 2] (22:56 - 22:57) 476 BCS (22:56 - 22:57)
477
275 Prompt engineering. 478 Prompt engineering.
276 479
277 [Speaker 1] (22:58 - 23:05) 480 HST (22:58 - 23:05)
278 Yeah. The prompt engineering is, there are three aspects of this, I think. There is the base model. 481
279 482 Yeah. The prompt engineering is, there are three aspects of this, I
280 [Speaker 2] (23:06 - 23:13) 483 think. There is the base model.
484
485 BCS (23:06 - 23:13)
486
281 Right. Which is something like 100 billion gigabytes or something. 487 Right. Which is something like 100 billion gigabytes or something.
282 488
283 [Speaker 1] (23:13 - 23:46) 489 HST (23:13 - 23:46)
284 Yeah. Well, it's certainly that many dimensions. And I don't know, there's this whole business about projecting to lower dimensionalities for years that I don't understand. 490
285 491 Yeah. Well, it's certainly that many dimensions. And I don't know,
286 But there's the base model. There is the make this a question answerer, make a question answerer from this base model. And there's, what do we add to the conjunction of those two from your question? 492 there's this whole business about projecting to lower dimensionalities
287 493 for years that I don't understand.
288 [Speaker 2] (23:48 - 23:54) 494
289 And is the third of those what's called prompt engineering? I think so. 495 But there's the base model. There is the make this a question
290 496 answerer, make a question answerer from this base model. And there's,
291 [Speaker 1] (23:55 - 23:59) 497 what do we add to the conjunction of those two from your question?
498
499 BCS (23:48 - 23:54)
500
501 And is the third of those what's called prompt engineering? I think
502 so.
503
504 HST (23:55 - 23:59)
505
292 But I could be wrong. It doesn't matter. 506 But I could be wrong. It doesn't matter.
293 507
294 [Speaker 2] (24:00 - 24:01) 508 BCS (24:00 - 24:01)
509
295 Anyway. Yeah. Anyway. 510 Anyway. Yeah. Anyway.
296 511
297 [Speaker 1] (24:04 - 24:26) 512 HST (24:04 - 24:26)
298 Even though the interesting part in a way is in a sense from the performance point of view is not the base model, but it's the thing you make a question answerer out of it with. 513
299 514 Even though the interesting part in a way is in a sense from the
300 [Speaker 2] (24:27 - 24:28) 515 performance point of view is not the base model, but it's the thing
516 you make a question answerer out of it with.
517
518 BCS (24:27 - 24:28)
519
301 Right. Right. 520 Right. Right.
302 521
303 [Speaker 1] (24:29 - 25:19) 522 HST (24:29 - 25:19)
304 Because that's what the people who don't have any money scrimp on, skimp on. Right. And why you then get things which lie and fabulate and contradict themselves and in general, or start imitating Witty Tiki Ray rather than a human being or whatever it might be. 523
305 524 Because that's what the people who don't have any money scrimp on,
306 Because actually, there's another kind of farm rather than the GPU farm that you need to build something like as successful as it is as chat GPT, which is a huge farm of ordinary human beings asking questions and feeding back to the engineers the wrong answers and saying, you've got to stop this kind of answer. 525 skimp on. Right. And why you then get things which lie and fabulate
307 526 and contradict themselves and in general, or start imitating Witty
308 [Speaker 2] (25:19 - 25:23) 527 Tiki Ray rather than a human being or whatever it might be.
528
529 Because actually, there's another kind of farm rather than the GPU
530 farm that you need to build something like as successful as it is as
531 chat GPT, which is a huge farm of ordinary human beings asking
532 questions and feeding back to the engineers the wrong answers and
533 saying, you've got to stop this kind of answer.
534
535 BCS (25:19 - 25:23)
536
309 Right. Yeah. That's a lot of trivial. 537 Right. Yeah. That's a lot of trivial.
310 538
311 [Speaker 1] (25:24 - 25:29) 539 HST (25:24 - 25:29)
540
312 And that's an open-ended and in principle, impossible task. 541 And that's an open-ended and in principle, impossible task.
313 542
314 [Speaker 2] (25:29 - 25:31) 543 BCS (25:29 - 25:31)
544
315 Right. Interesting. 545 Right. Interesting.
316 546
317 [Speaker 1] (25:32 - 25:34) 547 HST (25:32 - 25:34)
548
318 Anyway, that was all. 549 Anyway, that was all.
319 550
320 [Speaker 2] (25:34 - 25:45) 551 BCS (25:34 - 25:45)
321 A total footnote. You could have expressed your thought at the beginning of your what you just said that that's what people who scrimp skimp on. 552
322 553 A total footnote. You could have expressed your thought at the
323 [Speaker 1] (25:46 - 26:13) 554 beginning of your what you just said that that's what people who
555 scrimp skimp on.
556
557 HST (25:46 - 26:13)
558
324 Yes. Something like that. Anyway. 559 Yes. Something like that. Anyway.
325 560
326 But so I think from your perspective, it's really GPT-3 that you're interested in, which is the base model. It's now GPT-4 and they won't tell you anything about that. The only thing we have any information about is GPT-3. 561 But so I think from your perspective, it's really GPT-3 that you're
327 562 interested in, which is the base model. It's now GPT-4 and they won't
328 Right. Well, that's the only thing I've seen published information about from Google anyway. Right. 563 tell you anything about that. The only thing we have any information
329 564 about is GPT-3.
330 [Speaker 2] (26:16 - 26:17) 565
566 Right. Well, that's the only thing I've seen published information
567 about from Google anyway. Right.
568
569 BCS (26:16 - 26:17)
570
331 Yes. I mean, I think that's... 571 Yes. I mean, I think that's...
332 572
333 [Speaker 1] (26:18 - 26:19) 573 HST (26:18 - 26:19)
574
334 Open AI. Sorry. Yeah. 575 Open AI. Sorry. Yeah.
335 576
336 [Speaker 2] (26:19 - 26:26) 577 BCS (26:19 - 26:26)
578
337 From open AI. Yeah. I think that's what I was just talking about. 579 From open AI. Yeah. I think that's what I was just talking about.
338 580
339 I mean, it doesn't prove that I'm not interested in the other ones. 581 I mean, it doesn't prove that I'm not interested in the other ones.
340 582
341 [Speaker 1] (26:28 - 26:59) 583 HST (26:28 - 26:59)
342 But I mean, it's there, for instance, that we come back to the thing that you said, which I think is why I think Dijkstra is certainly in there is not only do they not know that there's a world that not only does that 100 million gigabytes, whatever it is, 100 million gigabytes, what it doesn't have is any obligation to the world about which... 584
343 585 But I mean, it's there, for instance, that we come back to the thing
344 [Speaker 2] (27:00 - 27:01) 586 that you said, which I think is why I think Dijkstra is certainly in
587 there is not only do they not know that there's a world that not only
588 does that 100 million gigabytes, whatever it is, 100 million
589 gigabytes, what it doesn't have is any obligation to the world about
590 which...
591
592 BCS (27:00 - 27:01)
593
345 Right. 594 Right.
346 595
347 [Speaker 1] (27:01 - 28:33) 596 HST (27:01 - 28:33)
597
348 That is some kind of representation. Right. Yeah. 598 That is some kind of representation. Right. Yeah.
349 599
350 But that responsibility can be decomposed in any particular instance to being only about a certain small part of the world, which amounts, I guess, in many cases, to some kind of story about reference and Dijkstra's. And it does... I am tempted to bring Jonathan back into this again, Jonathan Rees, because of his... 600 But that responsibility can be decomposed in any particular instance
351 601 to being only about a certain small part of the world, which amounts,
352 What he's been spending the last two or three years on is trying to articulate a story about reference, which is simply defined in terms of propositions that include this are vulnerable to changes in that. That is, they include this referring expression are vulnerable to changes in that bit of the world as a way of talking about what does that referring expression refer to? Well... 602 I guess, in many cases, to some kind of story about reference and
603 Dijkstra's. And it does... I am tempted to bring Jonathan back into
604 this again, Jonathan Rees, because of his...
605
606 What he's been spending the last two or three years on is trying to
607 articulate a story about reference, which is simply defined in terms
608 of propositions that include this are vulnerable to changes in
609 that. That is, they include this referring expression are vulnerable
610 to changes in that bit of the world as a way of talking about what
611 does that referring expression refer to? Well...
353 612
354 Because he's a radical empiricist, basically, he wants... 613 Because he's a radical empiricist, basically, he wants...
355 614
356 [Speaker 2] (28:33 - 28:33) 615 BCS (28:33 - 28:33)
616
357 Right. 617 Right.
358 618
359 [Speaker 1] (28:33 - 28:35) 619 HST (28:33 - 28:35)
620
360 Anyway, sorry, that is taking us away now. 621 Anyway, sorry, that is taking us away now.
361 622
362 [Speaker 2] (28:35 - 29:59) 623 BCS (28:35 - 29:59)
363 No, not entirely, because there was a title of a talk I was thinking of putting together, something like the nonverbal meaning of words. If we talk about, not only about Sussman, but let's say, and what he meant by empirical or something, but just we talk about... Well, the things we're talking about, the three parts, the base model, the delta that turns it into a question answering machine, and the prompt engineering that turns a particular prompt into a particular prompt, basically, particular question into a particular 624
364 625 No, not entirely, because there was a title of a talk I was thinking
365 (This file is longer than 30 minutes. Go Unlimited at TurboScribe.ai to transcribe files up to 10 hours long.) 626 of putting together, something like the nonverbal meaning of words. If
627 we talk about, not only about Sussman, but let's say, and what he
628 meant by empirical or something, but just we talk about... Well, the
629 things we're talking about, the three parts, the base model, the delta
630 that turns it into a question answering machine, and the prompt
631 engineering that turns a particular prompt into a particular prompt,
632 basically, particular question into a particular
633